Wang Xian Interview 

By Asr Cordes

Journal of Asian Martial Arts × Volume 11 Number 2 – 2002

 

HOW DID YOU CAME TO STUDY TAIJI?

Well, it was the tradition and specialty of the area. Prior to the Cultural evolution [1966-1976], everyone living in the village practiced. It was almost as if you couldn’t live there without doing it. As a child living there you see everyone doing it, so naturally you try it too. When I began learning taiji, all of the people there were farmers. During the busy seasons, training was put on hold. When the farm work was done,

training continued. At that time, taiji training was in the background of my life.

 

n AT WHAT POINT DID YOU BECOME SERIOUS ABOUT STUDYING TAIJI?

My serious training began when I was around eighteen years old, but my formal training didn’t begin until I was twenty. At that time, Chen Zhaopei had returned to Chen Village and began teaching formal classes. Before Chen Zhaopei organized formal classes, everyone had their own small training groups and areas, usually at home. Family members of all different ages trained together. There were no big classes or anything like that. I first studied Small Frame Chen Style and then Large Frame. I would like to note that the Chen Small and Large Frames have a few difference between them. Based on my experience and observations, the Old Large Frame of Chen Style yields a faster rate of development.

 

n WE HAVE HEARD THAT YOU HAVE BEEN INSTRUMENTAL IN HELPING TO PRESERVE AND PROMOTE CHEN TAIJI. COULD YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT?

Throughout the past, the popularity of taiji in Chen Village has had its ups and downs due to different events. The most recent down period was during the ten years of the Cultural Revolution. During the Cultural Revolution, I was in a unique position to help keep taiji going in the village as I held the position

of dui zhang, which is like a vice mayor. Chen Zhaopei gave me the special responsibility of maintaining and promoting taiji development in the village. I knew I would need the help of the other teachers in the village. I invited Chen Zhaokui, an eighteenth-generation representative, back to the Chen Village to

teach the New Frame system of his father, Chen Fake.

I sought out the assistance of the local government leaders to help restore and promote the growth of taiji practice in and around the village. We organized all of the small training groups into formal town classes. We put in place compulsory regulations that made it mandatory that these small groups form town classes. If a person trained well, they would receive special awards such as pay bonuses. If a person trained poorly, there might be pay deductions or overtime hours issued. These different groups also had small competitions in which people would receive special awards.

I also brought taiji training into the elementary and middle school curriculum. In addition to this, I opened up school and public classes for advanced practitioners to bring them up to a higher level. After a few years, I opened up a professional training school [ti xiao] with middle- and advanced-level classes. As a result, everyone in the village was into taiji training. The Japanese began to develop a strong interest in taijiquan in 1981.

After studying Yang taiji for a year, they learned that the major taiji styles had developed from Chen taiji and that the Chen Village was the source of taiji. In 1982, they approached the Henan Province Sports Committee about learning taiji in the Chen Village. I went as a representative to meet and interview

the Japanese. In 1982, they brought a group of taiji enthusiasts from Japan to study at Chen Village. This was the first time the village had been opened up to other countries. This event drew such a large crowd that many police were needed to provide security. The event received lots of publicity from both the local

and Japanese media. A well-known Japanese journalist, Shan Po Yinfu in Mandarin, was among this first group of visitors. He invited me to visit Japan in 1983. Japanese television and newspapers covered this visit extensively. I set up coaches for many cities in Japan and returned to China. About this time, taiji in general started to gain more popularity around the world.

Later, the Henan Sports Committee wanted me to go and teach in other areas. A few years later the other members of the “Four Great Tigers” moved from the village to teach in other places in China and around the world. Since nearly everyone was gone, and I knew someone needed to stay and keep up the level of practice in the village, I gave up the teaching post and returned to the hometown. Presently, my students

are doing very well. I do not need to go see them compete anymore because I know how they will do.

 

n I HAVE NOTICED THAT LOTS OF MARTIAL ARTISTS ACKNOWLEDGE TAIJI AS A GOOD HEALTH EXERCISE BUT NOT AS AN EFFECTIVE MARTIAL ART. COULD YOU EXPLAIN A BIT ABOUT TAIJI TRAINING TO HELP US UNDERSTAND MORE CLEARLY?

Taiji training is very hard. You must train past your body’s normal limits – many times past these normal limits. Normal training just will not do. You need to push. Back in Chen Village, all of the people were farmers. The winter and spring were not busy times, so we had a lot of time to practice. So I trained very

hard through the summer heat and the winter cold. I had a long yard and I don’t know how many times a day I would train the routines. Too many to count. If you want to make real improvement, it is important that you work past your normal limits.

Even though we would have to lay off of training to do the seasonal farm work, we could retain our gongfu or cultivation. Just a few days of warming up and you would be very good again. Training internal energy it is like the rain. When it is raining very hard, the water comes down very strong and is abundant. When it is not raining, the water evaporates and dries up. When you are training internal energy very well,

you need to keep it going and growing. Do not stop too long and allow your internal energy cultivation to evaporate or recede. It is not like an underground spring in where you dig until you hit water and the water continues flowing forever. I used this analogy to clarify how you should train energy. If you want to build up very strong internal work, you must be consistent in practice and I reiterate that you must train many times beyond your normal limits.

As far as the martial aspect is concerned, most martial arts have special and secret methods. Chen Style also has methods that are unique and are not taught to the general public. Even I actually have methods that most taiji practitioners normally do not know.

The external martial styles are more straight in and straight out when it comes to punching and kicking. The internal styles emphasize more on breathing, mind control, and spiral movements. I feel that external styles are too demanding on the body. If practiced for too long, you will suffer when you get older. As the external martial artist ages, the bones and tendons start to show injury and then it is too late to really correct. If you only train “hard,” the body is injured but you might not know it until it is too late.

Energy is generated from the inside and cultivated until it permeates the whole body from the most internal level to the surface of the skin. This makes you very healthy, but taiji is not just for that. It also builds very good fighting skills. External arts use explosive punching and kicking. The internal styles

specialize in the use of spiral mechanics [chan su jin], a unified way of delivering explosive power [fajing], as well as a way of dissipating power called yin jin luo kong. Yin jin luo kong means using your sensitivity to trick the opponent into attacking and then leading him into emptiness and then attacking him

at his weakest moment. This is the internal arts usage of soft to fight hard.

These are the high-level skills of taiji. Normally people watch taiji and ask, “How can that be used for fighting?” At this level, people are not really capable of understanding taiji’s secrets. They only see the outside, yet have no feeling to complete the picture. Once they start training and start developing to a higher level, they say, “Oh, now I understand a little.” This process repeats itself until the many little breakthroughs lead to real skills. Progress comes by gradually building up. You can’t push people and make them understand this kind of thing.

The internal arts include weapons practice, but they are not really used for self-defense. In the old days, people used them for protection, but since then things have cooled off. Now the martial uses have become more secret. In older times, people trained real hard for protection. Now the emphasis has shifted more toward health. Currently, many people practice Yang taijiquan because it was the first to reach the public eye and is easier to learn. People are likely to do it when they are only looking for health.

Chen Style is not only soft, it is also hard. It is not only slow, it is also fast. Yang Style leans toward the soft side and the Chen Style sticks to perfectly balancing the two extremes and is easily adjusted to all ages and body types.

Chen Style is very flexible but always maintains the internal training. The difference is who can improve faster. If you want to improve faster, you need to work harder to reach a high level. Yang Style has internal training but soft training is not enough to reach high level or martial skill. If you want fighting

skill, you will need special training.

First you build up internal energy from inside. You build up the whole body. The body becomes strong and internal energy can go through the whole body at the mind command. Then good fighting skill can be developed. Internal skills and health are developed at the same time. The special training for fighting

skill requires in-depth knowledge of the applications of the Chen Style routines. Many people never reach this point in their training, so they never really understand about the fighting skills. That is the hard part of training.

 

[LI SHUDONG]: I ONCE HAD A TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS TEACHER. IF HE DID NOT KNOW A STUDENT WELL, HE WOULD TEACH THEM MOTIONS BUT NOT USAGE. HE WANTED TO KEEP THE TRADITION OF TRANSMITTING TO THE RIGHT PEOPLE. HE NEEDED TO KNOW WHO REALLY WANTED TO TRAIN, IF THEY HAD GOOD CHARACTER AND MANNERS. HE MADE SURE EVERYTHING WAS CORRECT AND ONLY THEN HE TAUGHT THE SECRETS. THESE TEACHINGS ARE NOT EASILY DIVULGED TO THE PUBLIC, RIGHT?

No matter how much money people offer me, if they do not demonstrate the right character and I do not like teaching them, then no matter how much they pay, it won’t matter. I would not teach them. When it comes to martial skills, Chen Style has elements that the external styles have, such as numerous hitting, kicking, throwing, and joint locking techniques. Every style has those things. However, the spiral energy and short energy techniques, not everyone has those.

Taiji has five basic fighting skills: 1) feinting or dodging to trick an opponent, 2) grabbing techniques, 3) controlling, usually done with grabs and throws, 4) neutralizing attacks, and 5) hitting. These techniques are not isolated during usage. In fact, they are used together in various combinations according to the situation.

 

n [WANG STANDS UP TO DEMONSTRATE A MOVEMENT CALLED “LAZY ABOUT TYING A ROBE.” HE THEN ASKS ME TO GRAB BOTH OF HIS WRISTS WITH ALL MY STRENGTH. SUDDENLY HE CIRCLES HIS WAIST, GENERATING A TREMENDOUS SHAKING POWER, WHICH THROWS ME AWAY AND FREES HIM FROM THE DOUBLEHANDED GRAB. THE POWER GENERATED WAS BOTH SOFT AND POWERFUL, AT ONCE GENERATING SUCH AN IMMENSE JOLT THAT I WAS SLIGHTLY DISORIENTED.]

I used this demonstration to show that not only do you have and use power, but you also use it very intelligently. You apply your power to just the right places that are the most vulnerable. Do not just hit the opponent. Sense the weakness in his power, then attack. In this case, the thumbs were the weak part

of the hold so they were attacked to neutralize the hold. When executing the movements of the form, every small detail needs to be articulated. The attention to these subtleties in the forms will determine your

success in developing real taiji combative skills.

 

n [USING THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE MOVEMENT “LAZY ABOUT TYING A ROBE,” HE CIRCLES BOTH HANDS UPWARD AND DOES A SMALL PRESSING ACTION BY EXTENDING AND SETTLING THE WRISTS TO THE FRONT.]

This little pressing action at the top seems very small, but when it comes to martial technique, it is very important. You have this technique where the movement appears to be only neutralizing, but at the end there is a subtle attack hidden in the minute detail.

 

n COULD YOU PLEASE TELL US OF YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH YOUR TEACHER CHEN ZHAOPEI?

Chen Zhaopei was a very good person. He did not have a chance to receive a high education, but his memory was incredible. He committed to he worked for the civil service. When he returned to Chen Village, he used all of his energy to help preserve Chen taiji. He would always try to answer every question a student had and watch their movements to try and understand what their problems were so that they could be corrected. He was extremely warmhearted. He would go way out of his way to teach and help people.

In 1972, the first competition was held in Dengfeng County, Henan Province. Chen Zhaopei was the head coach. By setting up formal classes and organizing competitions to promote development, he tried to build up Chen taiji from a secret family style to the level of a national art and sport. I often had to attend meetings that would not end until late at night. After finishing my meetings, I would always stop by the school to find Chen Zhaopei inside with an oil lamp burning. So I would go see him and he would teach me a lot. Chen Zhaopei was quite fond of singing. He often sang in a traditional free-style type of singing in which the singer sings whatever is in his mind. Chen Zhaopei would often sing these lines:

 

When I hear the rooster crow, I awake and practice taiji.

Right now I am old, but I can still stick to the floor.

I want someone who can be my successor.

Even with sweat pouring out everywhere, I am quite happy.

 

n WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE LEVEL OF TAIJI PRACTICE IN THE UNITED STATES?

I am pleased to see the popularity of taiji rising in the U.S., but presently the Japanese display a higher level. This is due to the fact that they have been exposed to the top-level Chen masters for a longer time than the rest of the world outside of China. The higher-level Chen taiji has only been taught in the U.S. for a relatively short period. However, I am sure that the level will continue to rise in the next few years.

I am happy to see the rapid growth of taiji’s popularity in such a short time. A lot of students are doing very well. However, I hope that they can practice more and for a longer time so that they can reach the deeper, more valuable aspects of taiji. I really appreciate the hospitality that everyone has shown me

during this visit and I hope everyone gets a chance to visit Chen Village. I have done a lot of traveling and teaching around the world and I have observed the constant rise in taiji’s popularity. Right now I am trying to build up Chen Village because, although it is the seat of Chen Style, it is a very poor village. It does not have a lot of the amenities that foreign visitors are accustomed to. Some serious students do not care about those kinds of things, but it would help things out greatly if the living arrangements were a little more comfortable during their stay. Also, I have made sure that there are higher level teachers there so that more people can stay and get the desired training. With all this in mind, I am in the process of building a large professional training facility with dormitories. This also will serve to support Chen villagers who are really interested in training professionally: they can live there while training.